C.J. wrote in his previous column, “I’m not a fan of murdering civilians. Not even for the Revolution. ... Soldiers killing each other is one thing. … Especially the murdering of the women and the kids ...”
I agree that it's absurd to believe Hamas "never killed anyone with an intent to kill." However, (as I wrote yesterday in my comment …
C.J. wrote in his previous column, “I’m not a fan of murdering civilians. Not even for the Revolution. ... Soldiers killing each other is one thing. … Especially the murdering of the women and the kids ...”
I agree that it's absurd to believe Hamas "never killed anyone with an intent to kill." However, (as I wrote yesterday in my comment on Scahill's 1st post), I'm inclined to believe the claim of Hamas leadership that their policy was not the "mass murder" of civilians but the capture of hostages. But, in practice, some Hamas soldiers weren't well disciplined (and certainly not the more radical groups and hooligans that later arrived).
With the Hannibal Directive, Israeli leaders ordered the "mass murder" of their OWN people; both soldiers and civilians ("everyone knew what it meant to not let any vehicles return to Gaza .... what the fate of some of the kidnapped people would be").
Unfortunately, Hamas leadership didn't realize that today's Israeli leaders don't place much value on the lives of their own hostages, and place no value on Gazan life ("it is a full destruction of Gaza“ ... No one expected this reaction from the Israel side … many Hamas leaders expected a more intense and prolonged version of previous Israeli attacks on Gaza”).
What's morally horrifying about the Hamas's 10/7 “Revolution” is that it ignited a “collective martyrdom operation launched without the consent of 2.3 million Palestinians” with Gaza now turned into a Warsaw Ghetto; “If we have to die, we have to die in dignity. Standing, fighting, fighting back …” (with Gazan civilians dying from bombs, disease, and starvation .. not much dignity there).
What's morally horrifying about the Israelis "defending themselves" is that they are eager (or at least indifferent) to accommodate the "martyrdom" of Gaza and carry out their own “Final Solution.” Israelis are now reprising the role of the Nazi regime & German soldiers who liquidated the Warsaw Ghetto (largely by burning it down when faced with resistance).
You seem like someone who is still capable of critical thought, which I appreciate and which, sadly, I am finding all too rare these days, so let me share an excerpt from a little speech I gave back in April. The point is, consider the possibility that there are always "monsters" on both sides of any armed conflict. Pretending that one side is innocent or more "moral" is childish. War is war. It always has been.
"What’s my point? Well, my point is ... that is war. Indiscriminate killing. Rape. Mass atrocities. That’s what war is. That is what it has always been. And we’ve been doing it to each other since the dawn of civilization. It is not going to stop. We are not going to stop it. Art is certainly not going to stop it. We are, whether we like it or not, a violent species, human beings. It isn’t all we are, but it is part of what we are. We are also lovers, teachers, healers, artists, and other beautiful things. But sometimes we are vicious killers. Monsters. Genocidal monsters.
A crazy old German philosopher once warned us, “beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.” He was joking, of course. There are no monsters. Or, rather, there are only monsters, on every side of every war. In a war, there are no good guys and bad guys. There is just our side and the other side. Our atrocities and their atrocities. And whoever wins gets to write the history.
That’s it. The rest is propaganda. Their propaganda and our propaganda. Of course, our propaganda is not propaganda. Our propaganda is just the truth. Because we’re not monsters. They are the monsters.
This is Day 202 of Israel’s war on Hamas, or its liquidation of Gaza, depending on your perspective. I haven’t said too much about it publicly. I said a few things about it when it began. That didn’t go well. No one was listening. The propaganda from both sides was already deafening. I described the Hamas attack as mass murder. My pro-Palestinian readers didn’t like that. I described Israel as a typical mass-murdering nation-state, no different than the United States of America, Germany, France, Spain, The Netherlands, the Soviet Union, the British empire, the Ottoman empire, the Holy Roman Empire, or any other mass-murdering nation-state or empire. My pro-Israeli readers didn’t like that. Neither side wanted to hear about history. The history of asymmetric warfare, or terrorism, depending on your perspective. The history of nation-states and empires. They wanted to hear a story about monsters. About the monsters on the other side."
“there are only monsters, on every side of every war. In a war, there are no good guys and bad guys. There is just our side and the other side. Our atrocities and their atrocities.”
...
Your quote reminds me of a Yugoslav War movie starring Dennis Quaid that I saw back in the '90s (“Savior” 1998, produced by Oliver Stone). It was not what many viewers were expecting from a “war” movie and it only got 56% on “Rotton Tomatoes” with mixed reviews (like the reaction to your column).
The reviewer “s p” wrote, “It was a very brutal movie, it actually shows what can happen in war without the glamour, … To me this movie was not about sides , it was about the harsh reality of … warfare which involves civilians ... thought provoking and very emotive and very sad, with that said a very very well made movie.“
C.J. wrote in his previous column, “I’m not a fan of murdering civilians. Not even for the Revolution. ... Soldiers killing each other is one thing. … Especially the murdering of the women and the kids ...”
I agree that it's absurd to believe Hamas "never killed anyone with an intent to kill." However, (as I wrote yesterday in my comment on Scahill's 1st post), I'm inclined to believe the claim of Hamas leadership that their policy was not the "mass murder" of civilians but the capture of hostages. But, in practice, some Hamas soldiers weren't well disciplined (and certainly not the more radical groups and hooligans that later arrived).
With the Hannibal Directive, Israeli leaders ordered the "mass murder" of their OWN people; both soldiers and civilians ("everyone knew what it meant to not let any vehicles return to Gaza .... what the fate of some of the kidnapped people would be").
Unfortunately, Hamas leadership didn't realize that today's Israeli leaders don't place much value on the lives of their own hostages, and place no value on Gazan life ("it is a full destruction of Gaza“ ... No one expected this reaction from the Israel side … many Hamas leaders expected a more intense and prolonged version of previous Israeli attacks on Gaza”).
What's morally horrifying about the Hamas's 10/7 “Revolution” is that it ignited a “collective martyrdom operation launched without the consent of 2.3 million Palestinians” with Gaza now turned into a Warsaw Ghetto; “If we have to die, we have to die in dignity. Standing, fighting, fighting back …” (with Gazan civilians dying from bombs, disease, and starvation .. not much dignity there).
What's morally horrifying about the Israelis "defending themselves" is that they are eager (or at least indifferent) to accommodate the "martyrdom" of Gaza and carry out their own “Final Solution.” Israelis are now reprising the role of the Nazi regime & German soldiers who liquidated the Warsaw Ghetto (largely by burning it down when faced with resistance).
You seem like someone who is still capable of critical thought, which I appreciate and which, sadly, I am finding all too rare these days, so let me share an excerpt from a little speech I gave back in April. The point is, consider the possibility that there are always "monsters" on both sides of any armed conflict. Pretending that one side is innocent or more "moral" is childish. War is war. It always has been.
https://cjhopkins.substack.com/p/fighting-monsters
"What’s my point? Well, my point is ... that is war. Indiscriminate killing. Rape. Mass atrocities. That’s what war is. That is what it has always been. And we’ve been doing it to each other since the dawn of civilization. It is not going to stop. We are not going to stop it. Art is certainly not going to stop it. We are, whether we like it or not, a violent species, human beings. It isn’t all we are, but it is part of what we are. We are also lovers, teachers, healers, artists, and other beautiful things. But sometimes we are vicious killers. Monsters. Genocidal monsters.
A crazy old German philosopher once warned us, “beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster.” He was joking, of course. There are no monsters. Or, rather, there are only monsters, on every side of every war. In a war, there are no good guys and bad guys. There is just our side and the other side. Our atrocities and their atrocities. And whoever wins gets to write the history.
That’s it. The rest is propaganda. Their propaganda and our propaganda. Of course, our propaganda is not propaganda. Our propaganda is just the truth. Because we’re not monsters. They are the monsters.
This is Day 202 of Israel’s war on Hamas, or its liquidation of Gaza, depending on your perspective. I haven’t said too much about it publicly. I said a few things about it when it began. That didn’t go well. No one was listening. The propaganda from both sides was already deafening. I described the Hamas attack as mass murder. My pro-Palestinian readers didn’t like that. I described Israel as a typical mass-murdering nation-state, no different than the United States of America, Germany, France, Spain, The Netherlands, the Soviet Union, the British empire, the Ottoman empire, the Holy Roman Empire, or any other mass-murdering nation-state or empire. My pro-Israeli readers didn’t like that. Neither side wanted to hear about history. The history of asymmetric warfare, or terrorism, depending on your perspective. The history of nation-states and empires. They wanted to hear a story about monsters. About the monsters on the other side."
“there are only monsters, on every side of every war. In a war, there are no good guys and bad guys. There is just our side and the other side. Our atrocities and their atrocities.”
...
Your quote reminds me of a Yugoslav War movie starring Dennis Quaid that I saw back in the '90s (“Savior” 1998, produced by Oliver Stone). It was not what many viewers were expecting from a “war” movie and it only got 56% on “Rotton Tomatoes” with mixed reviews (like the reaction to your column).
The reviewer “s p” wrote, “It was a very brutal movie, it actually shows what can happen in war without the glamour, … To me this movie was not about sides , it was about the harsh reality of … warfare which involves civilians ... thought provoking and very emotive and very sad, with that said a very very well made movie.“
Also, some good reviews at https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120070/reviews